Lemmy user TachyonTele SLAMS news outlets for their unwanted hyperbole!!!

“I am the one who must have been the wind!”

Far be it from me to denounce some joy you found in the movie. We both obviosuly like StarWars (fellow geeks!), and if you liked TLJ’s take, you do you.

I agree whole heartedly that it would be uninteresting to make Luke “saint-like”. My issue isn’t with him having flaws and room for growth.

But I stand by the fact that his “mistake” in the ST runs directly contrary to the central theme of and lesson learned in his original arc. It may have been “in character” for ESB Luke, but by the end of RotJ, he had been shown that the goodness in a person can overcome the darkness, even in Vader.

And TLJ didn’t spend any time developing his actions, it just kinda said “well, his central arc wasn’t as impactful as it seemed”. Which I do believe is lazy/bad writing.

To blatantly plagerize Wikipedia.

A character arc is the transformation or inner journey of a character over the course of a story. If a story has a character arc, the character begins as one sort of person and gradually transforms into a different sort of person in response to changing developments in the story. Since the change is often substantive and leading from one personality trait to a diametrically opposite trait (for example, from greed to benevolence), the geometric term arc is often used to describe the sweeping change.

Luke’s arc saw him learn to see and believe in the godness inside people, even when no one else could. Better writing would have pushed into his transformation, or found a previously unexplored flaw to examine. Having characters need to learn the same lessons over and over again is not only frustrating, it’s lazy writing and poor character development.

To that point, I once heard a youtuber recommend an alternative reason for Luke’s fall that would have leaned into this defining characteristic. They suggested that Luke still get the premonition regarding Ben, but believe the goodness in Ben could overcome the darkness. When Ben inevitably falls to the darkside, this could cause Luke to have a crisis of faith, fundamentally putting the plot in the same spot as the beginning of TLJ, but in a way that played off of Luke’s defining moment, as opposed to grinding against it.

Now you would have had to explain Ben’s turn to the darkside, but I think “my uncle attacked me” is also kind of a weak reason to betray his parents anyway (and kill his father, and attempt to kill his mother). And also fails to address his weird obsession with Vader, like that was just kind of glossed over.

Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Definitely could have gone a lot of different ways, and many of them would have been much better imho. That being said, no doubt JJ handed him a writing hard mode plot thread.

Make an interesting, compelling, convincing reason why a classic hero’s journey arch type would call it quits. Not an easy thing to do. And it definitely contributed to the problems.

(though when Mark Hamil was telling Rian he fundamentally disagrees with Rian’s interpretation of the character, it’s hard to say he didn’t have fair warning)

Nah, man. The scene people whine about is the equivalent of Luke wailing on Vader, getting that sweet, sweet hand vengeance, and then stopping to think about what it all means. In TLJ it’s just compressed into like 3 seconds. In-universe, it’s bad luck. In narrative terms, Ben was in a different point on his character arc.

If it worked for you, more power to you, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind on this. But I can’t help myself when I see the apologetics for the “Luke ignited his light saber over a bad premonition scene”.

It’s not just “bad luck”, it’s bad writing. Luke didn’t just “wail on Vader” to get that “sweet hand vengeance”. He initially turned himself in believing he could convert his father back to the light. He only attacked after extreme emotional manipulation from one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, during an active battle to determine the fate of all his friends, all they fought for, and the literal freedom of the Galaxy. That is a far reach from a moment of pure safety where he had a bad premonition and the “threat” was sleeping.

The whole explanation of this scene (and by extension the plot point that the core of the ST hinges on) assumes Luke not only learned nothing from successfully turning Vader back to the light, but actively learned the opposite lesson.

I get that people can change over time, and not always for the better, but this is just hands down terrible character writing. Making such drastic changes in such an iconic character, without spending any time developing those changes, having those changes be directly counter to the lessons the character supposedly learned during his primary arc, and then using this unexplained change as the catalyst to the entire ST is awful writing.

And we are not even touching on his new found love of “THE SACRED TEXTS!”, or how he completely gives up and goes hermit mode.

I’ll give Rian credit for actually trying to innovate when it was his turn at bat, but his handling of Luke was honestly some of the most egregious examples of not understanding the characters you are writing, and having them pick up the idiot stick just to move the plot forward.

Comparison mostly. HD and 3D isn’t impressing you by virtue of it being superior to real life (it isn’t after all), it’s impressing you compared to other examples of the same thing done “worse”. The best portrait artist in the world can not make something look more “real” than the reference material, but it can compared to other attempts at painting.

This is true in other natural things as well. For example, a really big tree surrounded by smaller similar sized trees feels “really impressive” compared to a mountain surrounded by other… similar sized mountains. Or why a particularly colorful plant seems impressive surrounded by a bunch of green and brown plants.

On the other hand, things like OLED screens can be impressive compared to the natural world due to their ability to arrange and display colors rarely found in nature.

Look man, I like the Holiday special too, but there’s no need to be mean about the other obviously inferior movies.

lol, holy shit… I can’t believe I didn’t notice that.

So I apparently have too much free time and wanted to check. So I asked ChatGPT how long the border was exactly, and it could only get an approximate guess, and it had to search using Bing to confirm.

Hey, thanks for making StarWars memes. I know making ST memes can generate a lot of… impassioned discussions. But I appreciate seeing the genuine effort on content. So thanks.

If it worked for you, more power to you. My ramblings are nothing more than the butthurt musings of an OT fanboy. And maybe I’ll always be blinded by those lenses.

Fwiw, I did understand the point they were trying to make, and I get that it is possible for a person to change over decades, and not always for the better.

But for me, regardless of the point, it was too large a departure from the core of Luke’s character. Character writing involves, well… characterization. Giving your characters arcs, traits, beliefs, values, and growth. Unless you take the time to show and develop the changes in a character, then it can feel like a wholely different person. And (with no time spent developing the change) the Luke we got in TLJ held none of the traits of, or lessons learned by, Luke in the OT.

Luke had ended the OT being defined by his courage, composure, dedication to his friends, and an unyielding belief that the goodness inside a person is able to overcome the darkness. Luke in the ST showed none of those traits. And I think that undermining the core traits of a beloved character, without even spending time developing those changes, just to make a point, was a bad choice.

To be fair, even assuming Luke’s retelling is accurate, it kinda felt super out of character for him to “unknowingly ignite his lightsaber”. Last time we saw the guy in movie cannon, he had just thrown away his lightsaber while facing down two Sith Lords, so strong was his belief in the good within his father. He was a Jedi Master, trained by Yoda to control his emotions. And I dont think it would be unfair to assume he got better at this since ROTJ.

But instead, he got so bad at self control that he pulled out his weapon on his nephew, over a bad premonition. Then when shit hit the fan, gives up completely and goes full hermit mode. Just didn’t feel like Luke to me. Instead it felt like Rian Johnson just wanted to make a point about hero worship and to subvert expectations.

I agree with your overarching points in the meme. But I’ll always be sad to see, what felt to me like, the character assassination of Luke Skywalker.

All good jazz musicians and role players know, its not about the notes you play, but the ones you don’t.

Edit: After watching HBomberguy’s plagerism video, I feel compelled to mention that this is a butchered Miles Davis quote. Borrowed from “Biopic Of The Cool: Don Cheadle Channels A Jazz Legend In ‘Miles Ahead’” by Amy Nicholson, www.mtv.com. March 30, 2016.

As an entry level tech worker, I feel both seen and attacked. Fair play to ya.