Discussing politics and other contentious sunjects online feels to me like it’s counterproductive these days and even though I try not to get suckered in, I often can’t help myself. Usually though I just end up feeling frustrated and sometimes angry at the other person either missing my points or refusing to accept them.
Thinking back to conversations I’ve had here and previously on Reddit, not only can I not remember an example of me “winning” the discussion and the other person changing their mind or conceding the point, I also cannot think of a time where my mind was changed either.
So have you ever begun a discussion online with someone with a different view point to yours and either you, or they, changed the others mind?
It’s rare to straight up change someone’s mind. But most change is about planting a seed that will grow over time as they remember what you said and start seeing patterns that align with it. I’ve had a few more of those, and they are still productive.
No, I dont think so, but I have been DM’d by one or two people who weren’t participating in the discussion, they were reading or just following along; my (and other similarly minded folks in said discussion) arguments apparently got them to at least somewhat reconsider what they believed. It was only ever a handful of times over the years, but I think it still fits the premise of your question.
Now granted, this was mostly on like 2010’s “Christian creationist verses basically all of science” rage-bate Facebook groups (as was the style at the time). I have no way of confirming these people were being genuine, but also no real reason to doubt them. Most of the messages I got were people learning for the first time that Evolutionary Theory wasn’t “anti-Christian.” That the vast majority of Christians and Christian denominations weren’t actually Young Earth Creationist or necessarily against the concept of the theoretical foundations of academic biology. Heck, one or two of them didn’t even know that the overwhelming majority of Chritstians are not biblical literalists. They had been taught that most of the fields of science were basically a (insert boogeyman here) plot to destroy Christianity or god or something.
Again, these weren’t the people I was “debating” but rather just curious onlookers watching me, an insufferable 20-something edgy-atheist (again, as was the style at the time), dunk on people who had absolutely no intention of doing anything other than move the goal post to protect sky daddy.
I’ve both had my mind changed and had others change their mind when talking online, but I don’t think it’s the norm if I’m being honest. Most people don’t seem to enjoy having their views challenged and someone feeling defensive will very rarely approach discussion with an open mind. I say this as someone who gets defensive and struggles at times with this very thing. We’re all flawed. 🙃
You’ve got to figure out your audience. You can’t change people unwilling to change. Since most people online prefer an echo chamber to reasonable discussion, you’ll overwhelmingly encounter those that won’t change their mind.
That said, I still find it mostly worthwhile to have SOME back and forth with those people because others will read it. I feed some trolls a few scraps in hopes that lurkers will be able to discern the better argument from it. Don’t go in too deep, and once the ad hominems come nonstop from them, or you can’t keep your next reply from containing them, stop.
I’ve had my mind changed plenty of times, but I’m also open to the idea I can be wrong. If you are talking with people that can’t manage that much, you won’t feel like you’ve “won” any arguments because it’s coming down to two people saying the other is wrong without allowing themselves to be the one in the wrong.
All that said, I’ve had way better discussion here than reddit.
Don’t know about changing my opinion while actively arguing with someone, but I have had opinions that formed for the first time when I read through comments of other people arguing. So, there’s still some value in arguing your own points for a third person observer. :)
Yes, it happens from time to time on lemmy. People convinced me to their point of view couple of times as well. As long as someone actually wants to talk and not just silence you it’s possible. I was way less likely on Reddit.
I’ve certainly had my mind changed.
One of my earliest memories of the internet was when I was like 12 and I went to nuklearpower.com (home of the 8-bit Theater webcomic), and I saw a thread in the forums debating religion. I knew atheists existed, but had never met one and never really considered why I believed the things I did, or why they believed something different. I posted a comment defending what I’d been taught but then started really thinking about it. It wound up reshaping my entire belief system. I realized that if everyone just believed what we were taught, then there’d be no way for us to really know which of us is right, and even if I was right it would be through pure luck and there are countless people following the same approach to wrong conclusions. This led me towards science, and towards grounding my beliefs in reason and evidence.
That was the first time I had my mind changed, and yes I was very young but it wasn’t the only time. Some years ago, I not only had my mind changed but changed a big part of my lifestyle, in a large part because talking about it with people on the internet convinced me to go vegan. I don’t believe I’d met another vegan irl (unless they didn’t tell me, ang what are the odds of that?) and if I did I certainly didn’t debate the nitty gritty with them.
There are countless smaller examples I could point to. But in virtually all of those cases, the conversation didn’t end with, “Huh, I guess you’re right.” It ended with me arguing my position as best as I could, but being dissatisfied with the things I was saying and thinking it over over the course of days, months, even years. Changing your perspective or worldview usually doesn’t happen over the course of a single conversation, but it can cause a seed to be planted.
On individual points, yes, but I hardly engage these days. This was also back in the days of forums and fark more than on modern SNS
Most of the time it doesn’t escalate into a contentious debate, sure. Lots of discussions where the things I read change my view on things, and I’m sure my own comments change others’ view on things too.
But by the time it starts to take on the style of an actual debate, there’s less room to convince someone who feels strongly enough to engage in the debate. Still, it’s worth doing sometimes because in these public forums, the debate might be read by thousands of lurkers, some of whom didn’t feel strongly enough to have a view, but walk away convinced that one of the two sides is more correct.
I know I’ve been convinced of a side while watching two others debate.
Yeah, several time on lemmy. Maybe like once ever for 7 years of reddit lol.
You could never know. A lot of people are not self confident enough To admit they were wrong. Even of they do, they may not tell you.
I have had my mind changed, or at the very least been introduced to new ideas that I then went on to explore, which led to me changing my mind.
Online arguments are for the audience, anyway. This is more obvious if you watch some old debate videos from the mid 2010s, especially involving right wing “intellectuals” like JP. He is clearly uninterested in convincing his opponent. Most of the time, his aim is to (a) confuse and (b) enrage his opponent, and then adjust his suit and tie, lean back, and smugly tell them to calm down.
It’s not debating to convince your opponent (or even the audience) of your ideas, hence his tendency for useless tangents and unnecessarily esoteric language. It’s debating to look like the smart and collected guy, while making your opponent look unhinged in comparison. It’s not about the substance, it’s about the show.
He is clearly uninterested in convincing his opponent.
Having watched his debates with Sam Harris, I’ll at least give him credit for being able to steelman the views he’s arguing against.
Whether one is able to get others to change their deeply held beliefs is another thing but simply being able to demonstrate that you’ve actually understood the point you’re arguing against is a rare skill in of itself.
That’s only because he mostly agrees with sam harris. Who also does something similar, just not as well.
There’s a reason those guys always debate college students, and then when they run into college students that happen to be on the debate team and call them on their bullshit, those videos never make it to YouTube.
Peterson mostly agrees with Harris? The guys who spend an hour trying to define the word “truth” and failing to do so? I could not disagree more.
Correct. Their disagreements are largely performative. There is a reason they get platformed by the same people and are both considered “deep thinkers” by those people. Same with Ben shabongo and the fourth guy.
Note they all use the same tactic of decorum in their “debates”.
I’ve definitely had people reconsider their stance by bringing in more data or an alternative perspective but I’m not sure if anyone has ever admitted to having their view change about something. Then again, I don’t always announce it either despite the fact that it does happen so I guess it’s safe to assume I’ve then made it happen too.
In all honesty though, most online arguments are people talking past each other and disagreeing on minute details. Often the conclusion is “we’re broadly in agreement but we disagree about this one thing.”
That’s why it’s so ridiculous that people treat disagreement as if the person must then hold the exact opposite view. That is almost never the case.
Yes, there were a few times I have managed to convince someone on here, even on “political” topics. Not so much on Reddit.
Plenty of times I’ve been convinced that I was wrong about important things as well, which I always try to own.
I wouldn’t say there’s definitive “winning” or “losing” an online argument. This is a public forum, your arguments are there for everyone to see, even if the person you’re talking to still disagrees by the end it may help someone else form a more informed opinion.
Yes but I don’t remember what
