It appears to me that the current state of Lemmy is similar to other platforms when they were smaller and more insular, and that insularity is somewhat protecting it.
I browse Lemmy, and it feels a bit like other platforms did back in 2009, before they became overwhelmed and enshitified.
If I understand it correctly, Lemmy has a similar “landed gentry” moderation scheme, where the first to create a community control it. This was easily exploited on other platforms, particularly in regards to astroturfing, censorship, and controlling a narrative.
If/when Lemmy starts to experience its own “eternal September”, what protections are in place to ensure we will not be overwhelmed and exploited?
If the community becomes toxic, its easy to create an identically named community on another instance. A perfect example: when I joined lemmy I subscribed to the “news” community on lemmy.ml. When I saw how it was run, I unsubscribed and instead subscribed to “news” on lemmy.world.
Modlog documents all actions including moderator censorship. Nothing like that exists at reddit. If there is censorship happening, its in full view of the users on lemmy.
Again Modlog, if a moderator is removing dissenting opinion.
Beehaw is an example of a Lemmy instance immune to “Eternal September”. They disabled their easy signups, and defederated from instances that allow easy signups. I don’t particularly agree with their extreme approach, but its what was important to them and it was effective. This is a powerful use of Lemmy and the Fediverse.
To be pedantic, transparency mod bots exists on reddit and server admins can redact the log here.
It’s easy to create a differently named community on systems that don’t have this sort of server-based namespacing.
The part that’s missing is the original content mods removed. If I’m an abusive moderator and I want to censor someone, I’m not going to put “I don’t like your opinion” in the removal/ban reason; I’m going to put something that sounds reasonable like “racism” or “harassment”.
Time will tell. Either way, that’s not a solution for Lemmy as a whole.
I’m not understanding your point here. Can you reword it perhaps?
The modlog entries I’ve read show the offending comment as well as the moderator given reason for a ban. If I see something that isn’t racism being labeled as racism, I’d suspect the community was corrupt. I do get curious when I see a banned comment from a moderator. 95% of the time I agree with the moderator’s decision.
If you’re saying there isn’t a single solution for the entirety of Lemmy (or the Fediverse for that matter) I’ll agree with you. Where I’ll disagree with you that one has to exist or Lemmy will fail. With each instance having its own control we’ll see multiple approaches that suit each group of users.
If I’m not happy with how /r/knives is run on Reddit, I can make /r/knife to compete with it.
It shows part of the comment. I think there’s a limit on length, and it does not show media. The mod log is a good idea, but there’s room for improvement.
I never said Lemmy will fail, and that is not my position.
This doesn’t work too well in practice though, as we saw on reddit. If a new user looks for a subreddit about knives, 9 times out of 10 they will find r/knives and if it’s decently active they’ll never learn about r/knife. The name squatters have a massive advantage over the alternatives based on that alone.
Granted, the instance based community system has a similar problem where the communities on the biggest instances will have an advantage in attracting new users. But it’s a lot easier to overturn because you don’t have to use a janky alternative name, and you can easily publicize poor moderation and dissent on other servers.
Without the alternative server component, holding control over certain community names is way too powerful, and over time results in a significant degradation of the usability of the site, as it becomes harder and harder to find the actual well-moderated communities. Using alternative names doesn’t solve the problem, it just provides a temporary workaround. Federation actually solves the problem in the long term.
There is definitely room for improvement on the modlog. But also moderators and admins can view the full removed comment and media, so it’s not like that’s impossible. It’s a hell of a lot better than nothing, that’s for sure.
Ah, gotcha. Thank you for that. I understand your example. My response is, irrespective of /r/knives or /r/knife if Reddit bans the word “luigi” both subreddits are affected. That isn’t the case with Lemmy where if one instance bans a word, other instances don’t have to follow suit.
This is good information. I didn’t know about the limit length. I did some Google searches and could only find references to the 10,000 character Lemmy post limit, but nothing about the limit of modlog entires. Any idea what it is?
You make a good point on media. I didn’t know that either.
I will say that for any modlog entry I’ve seen of a removed comment I largely agree with the moderator’s actions about 95% of the time. I’m guessing a character limit would have to be VERY short for it to not capture the gist of an offending comment though. I’m prepared to retract that if you tell me its extremely small.
Apologies if I mistook your statements. I saw you referring to Lemmy as a whole, and the need for a Fediverse wide fix being your opinion to be necessary for Lemmy to not be eventually destroyed as a whole. If you have a more nuanced opinion on the points we’re discussing, I’m open to hearing it.
Several people have responded with things like this, but OP didn’t ask about that scenario. Of course federation solves that problem.
I think it’s more likely that Lemmy will stay niche than grow large enough to have an eternal September problem. If it does grow large, I think the risk is more a degraded experience than destruction.
They said:
“If/when Lemmy starts to experience its own ‘eternal September’, what protections are in place to ensure we will not be overwhelmed and exploited?”
I think the Luigi example applies to the “exploited” portion of OPs post.