I am not a native English speaker and I have sometimes referred to people as male and female (as that is what I have been taught) but I have received some backlash in some cases, especially for the word “female”, is there some negative thought in the word which I am unaware of?
I don’t know if this is the best place to ask, if it’s not appropriate I have no problem to delete it ^^
Female as an adjective is perfectly fine.
A female patient, a female politician, a female customer, etc. That’s the best way to refer to those.
What’s bad is using ‘female’ as a noun: "A female. "
In general, you just don’t use adjectives-as-nouns to refer to people. You don’t call someone “a gay”, “a black”, or “a Chinese”. That is offensive, and “a female” has the same kind of feel.
(there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it)
Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.
I’d just like to emphasise this. It’s not that using a different term is intrinsically bad, it’s just that the people who tend to do it are not cool and you don’t want to look like you’re associated with them.
When I was growing up, saying woman was offensive, because it made people feel old. So we would say “girl”. But now It’s flipped. Saying “girl” makes people feel too young, apparently.
I’m still kind of adjusting. The word “woman” still feels icky to me because I was berated for saying it as a kid.
Huh, interesting. Which generation are you from, out of curiosity?
I’m a millennial. It could also have been regional as well, I have no clue.
It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.
That’s how association works
I can have the best and most lasting solution to a problem ever, but my company still won’t allow me to put “THE FINAL SOLUTION” in marketing copy.
And they shouldn’t.
The VP of product messaged me a couple weeks ago after some back and forth about some work. She asked if I had some time to talk about the final solution. I went “uhhhh so long as we don’t call it that”
I’m like 90% sure she had no idea why that phrase is reserved.
So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?
Do you even hear yourself?
Engage in good faith or sod off.
If it has negative connotations, it’s not a perfectly fine word.
Negative connotations to whom? If those described do not like the term it should not be used. Basic human dignity, just like using one’s preferred pronouns.
I don’t think you’re disagreeing with me here.
Welcome to language my friend. Always has, always will.
Meanwhile, you are perfectly ok with judging someone based uniquely on which term they tend to use? Oh my, mankind is really going down the drain…
Yes. Life is a game of trying to guess which people are full of shit. If they say “feeeemales” and then turn out to be fine, great, I’ll probably give them a heads up not to do that.
Was there a non-judgmental era I’m unaware of?
Ok, fine, I’ll “try to guess” too then, if that’s your game. Goodbye!
Bye-bye.
Yes. Language can show what sort of media people consume and the sorts of groups they socialize with, especially when it comes to the internet.
If someone is using incel language, there will be a strong initial assumption they spend time within incel circles consuming toxic content like Andrew Tate and will remain under that assumption until proven otherwise. Sorry, not sorry?
Interesting point with adjectives vs nouns.
‘a Frenchman’ would be more correct than ‘a French’. Because French is only an adjective, while American and German are both nouns and adjectives. But Frenchman is not gender neutral like German or American.
Could go with Francophone, but that’s any french speaking person so that includes canadians, africans, etc.
And, it would seem to make sense to go with Frank, but the Franks were originally germans, then expanded their territory to include France, and the name stuck there but not in their original territory, so is it really correct to refer to the French as Franks? Since no one does it, I would guess not.
Not a native speaker here. Would a French woman also be 'a Frenchman’s and if not, how would you refer to a French woman correctly?
“Frenchwoman” perhaps? But that sounds a bit dated to me. I’d probably go with “French person” or “French people”.
3 years ago, “man” in that context was considered gender neutral. More recently tho a lot of stink is being made about little language things like this. Theres no replacement word to use.
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Wow, this actually sounds very plausible.
Sensitivities during Covid ran high. A lot of things changed then. For instance in the software world removing the name “master” from git usage, and on the TV Show Survivor, the host not saying his famous line “come on in guys”. At the same time pronouns became a huge thing, and these seemingly gender specific or sensitive word terms were targeted.
You are correct, there was a round of this in the 90s or so, where job titles like “waitress”, “stewardess”, “policeman” were all adjusted. I see that as a very different round of language change.
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Yeah, 2020 is the time period I’m referring to. I had never heard of it being a thing until George Floyd and BLM movement in 2020, then GitHub changed in response to that.
I’ve been in IT for 35 years. And I never heard a single negative thing about branch names and master/slave terminology until 2020.
Perhaps you think that was set aside because IDE hard drives are dead.
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Frenchwoman and Frenchperson are both ridiculous enough to try, but maybe go with Frenchie just to see if they’ll punch you.
Pffft barely, mon ami 😂
Québécois then.
Sounds more like a terf or “gender critical” person, but maybe that’s just my experience.
Fair.
Unless you’re a ferengi. /s
I think a big part that’s skeevy to me is that gender and sex are comparatively unimportant individual traits, referring to someone by their gender happens far more often for women and it’s a hold over of misogyny. There are much more interesting individual traits that identify us than our sex or presented gender.
You can soften “a black” or “a Chinese” entirely by adding “person” to the end of it. English is weird.
Right, because that makes it an adjective.
That’s werid because in french that’s not what we use in everyday life. We say “Un japonais” for example, not “Une personne japonaise” which kinda sounds unnecessary
My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.
I generally disagree and it seems fine and not disrespectful at all. But it’s somehat less up to me - I’m not a female.
Using a noun as an adjective is just weird, honestly.
I think that a good rule of thumb is: would you say “male doctor” or “male politician”? If not, is the professional’s gender relevant? Probably not, in which case it sounds pejorative to include it.
In some cases I would, and I would find it awkward to say “man doctor” or “man politician”. I don’t think it works at all, and I disagree with her that this really is the way most people try to avoid the naming.
But, kinda like pronoun; I guess I try to listen and be sensitive on things like how women and minorities saybtheyre sensitive about, including labels and etc.
“the suspect is a six foot, white male”
Sounds fine to me
“I was just visiting my friend, a six foot white male”
A little weirder. Context is everything.
Well yeah, why would I need a description of your friend unless it pertains to an upcoming story, and why not use his name if you know it? The cop can’t usually say “It was Steve what done it” because most places aren’t Mayberry.
I think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting. Similar to how documentation is done for other professions, like healthcare. If it’s out of the context of reporting, or other situations listed in the site below, it sounds grammatically strange or rude.
https://myenglishgrammar.com/lessons/adjectives-function-as-nouns/
Source: I’m in healthcare.
Anti Commercial-AI license (CC By-NC-SA 4.0
No they don’t. The word “male” is the noun here.
Why did people upvote that?
Because it’s still acting as a descriptor rather than an identifier, despite playing the syntactic role of a noun instead of an adjective. It’s more about semantics in this case than syntax.
No it is playing the syntactic role of a noun. An object is a noun.
I know it’s playing the syntactic role of a noun, that’s what I said. But it’s playing the semantic role of a descriptor. The “thing” being described here is a suspect, one that is white and also male, as opposed to a male who is white and also suspected.
Syntactically, the word male was a noun. But semantically, it’s still just describing the suspect, rather than identifying the thing to be described.
“Suspect” is the noun
Both are nouns. Suspect is the subject, male is the object. You could replace it with, for example “the suspect is a cat”, and I think we can all agree “cat” is a noun. “six foot” and “white” are the adjectives in that sentence.
Both are nouns there. Suspect is the subject.
So you don’t think this argument would hold up if they said “Police are searching for a six foot white male”?
Cops (ACAB) are not a good example for moral treatment of others.
Besides, this is basically jargon. That has its own set of rules.
Because the police never try to dehumanize “suspects” and “perpetrators”.
I’m going to nitpick a touch. “Female person” includes girls. “Women” ecludes them.
And that’s why I say “bruh”
I’m probably the only person to not use that word like a frat douche, I just like calling my guy friends bro and I tried calling my female friends bro and they didn’t find that funny so now everyone gets bruh’d
And yet here you are confidently expounding exactly how this works. Why, if you know you don’t understand, are you weighing in on this like you’re an authority on it?
Because fluent speakers of a language know the rules even if they don’t understand them. Why can you have a big green dog but not a green big dog? Because that’s the way the language works.
To be slightly more specific, you can have a “green big dog”, but it does not convey the same idea as a “big green dog”. The latter is by far the more normal, and it conveys any dog which is both big and green. The former implies the existence of “big dog” as a specific known thing, like “big dog” is a category of its own more than merely a dog that is big.
As a general rule though, yes, follow the adjective order guidelines. There’s some fuzziness with it, but “opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun” should be used.
Yeah, but if I ask a third grader which way is right, they’ll know and they won’t be able to tell you why. This is normal.
Tbh I think it’s just because it sounds bad phonetically, since “a Frenchman” or “an Englishman” are both acceptable as well, but “a French” or “An English” just sounds dumb. Of course you can only do that to white countries, don’t try it with China.
We did have a word that meant that and everyone knew it. But that word has changed into something else.
You okay buddy?
Female person doesn’t mean women.
The word has changed so it’s not correct to say that.
Unless you’re someone’s doctor, it’s almost never relevant to discuss someone’s sex. Gender is how we refer to people in most contexts, and when it’s important (e.g. discussing pregnancy) it’s not rude to make a distinction.
I’m talking about this
Except “woman” has always meant “adult presenting as female”
Oh dear… And why isn’t “a male” just as bad? And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun? Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”? Is it something to feel shame about? Bah. It’s really beyond me. Thank god i live in Italy, where this kind of stuff still struggles to gain traction, but alas it will do eventually, since hey, you know, we’re all living in america after all. What’s more, it’s not entirely true: now you can get scolded even for using female as an adjective (it happened to me more than once), my friend. And it’ll get worse, just you wait and see.
It is.
Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.
Because those are characteristics of their chosen functions.
It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.
Okay, that’s your opinion, not mine. If opinions still exist, that is.
And having innate characteristics is horrible… unbelievable. I must be really old.
Ok, you’re right, you’re reeeally smart. Well done. I quit, have the last say.
“I had coffee with one of the males at work”
“There’s a male waiting for you downstairs”
“I need to see a male about a dog”
All of them would be weird as fuck, and yes, they’d sound demeaning. They don’t have the same weird-incel vibe, but that’s just an accident of culture.
Right. This is the best way to figure out if it sounds weird.
If you would use “man” then the word to use is “woman”. If you would use “male” then “female”.
So if someone asks is the doctor male or female? No problem. Even if they ask “is the doctor a male or a female?” Still no problem. Kinda odd but certainly not offensive.
The problem arises when someone says “men and females” that does sound weird and kinda insulting. As would “women and males”.
If you would use the word man, use woman.
If you would use the word male, use female.
Typical male behavior!
There’s no reason for you to feel attacked by the previous sentence, right?